Not sure if you’ve been paying attention to the Amazon Vine brouhaha kicked off by Betsy Bird over at Fuse #8 last week, but if you are an industry tracker I’d urge you to take a look.
Here’s Betsy’s original post (make sure you read all comments), an additional perspective from Chasing Ray, as well as author Adam Rex’s opinion over on his blog.
I think this discussion has some larger implications for the industry, which is why it’s going to continue to get play.
Here’s what I find interesting:
1) Lack of transparency at Amazon
Amazon holds a very influential position in terms of consumer behavior at the moment, and it’s not at all clear, even among Vine Reviewers, how they were picked and exactly how their targeted lists are generated.
Publishers are similarly in the dark. I spoke to the head of marketing at one of the larger publishers yesterday who has not yet participated in the Vine Program because her department is unclear on how it works. They have the same questions we do.
I hope this discussion sheds some light on the issue, because I don’t think it’s a great practice to start a program that gives individuals an influential voice without being clear about who they are and how it works.
It does those chosen individuals a disservice—many of whom have taken the time to comment thoughtfully at Fuse #8 and the Amazon forum—as well as the authors they are reviewing, and it taints all the reviews with the air of mistrust. The credibility of these reviews will only be completely clear when Amazon explains the details.
Because Amazon takes a strictly hands-off approach, it seems like there is no baseline being set for how to write a thoughtful review that tells the readers what they need to know to decide if this book is for THEM. Just saying whether you liked it or not isn’t the same thing. Also, it bears mentioning that Vine members are also reviewing all kinds of consumer goods besides books.
From what I can tell, many Vine reviewers ARE taking the time to write thoughtful reviews, but since the program requires a certain level of review participation, perhaps books that wouldn’t be a reviewer’s first choice are getting posted.
It does appear, however, that in the case of the two books mentioned in Betsy’s post, Tony DiTerlizzi’s Meno, and Mac Barnett & Adam Rex’s Guess Again, the early Vine reviews didn’t reflect a very nuanced range of opinion right out of the gate.
It has ALWAYS been a problem that Amazon reviews can’t be modified in any way, even if the publisher or author feels they are hurtful or wildly inaccurate. The fact that these reviewers are working from advances just exacerbates the problem, because Vine reviews can come out early, and that can dominate the consensus as it did for these authors.
I noticed today that the reviews on the first Meno book are balancing out–to a nice safe 3– now that people are posting some more positive reviews, and it’s remained about the same for Mac & Adam. As Adam points out below, their book wasn’t hit quite so hard to begin with, though.
(BTW: If you have ever met Tony DiTerlizzi, there is nothing “3” about him or his work, and I mean that as a compliment.)
But hey, we live in a blockbuster environment. Early reviews matter, and I for one want them to be as thoughtful and trustworthy as possible.
Heads up, Vine reviewers: this credibility can only come with transparency from Amazon.
The comments thread on Fuse #8 has been the best source of information about the Vine program so far, so I thank all the contributors over there.
2) This opens up the larger discussion about the difference between a crowd-sourced model of review information as opposed to an “establishment” model.
What is different about a review from someone who does it for a living versus someone who does not? Is one better than the other? Is one fairer than another? Is there a way to use a crowd-source model that doesn’t reduce all ratings to 3 stars over time? What about special books that don’t appeal to all readers, but are for a particular audience? Can I still find them in a crowd-sourced review environment? Will publishers be willing to put them there? As the professional sources for mainstream reviews are dwindling, is this the only alternative?
I’m not so sure. I’d like a new model that puts a trusted POV back into the equation, and I’d like not to have to hunt and peck across a thousand blogs to find it. I think it’s interesting what the crowd thinks, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I trust it to align with my own tastes.
In fact, I think it’s the nature of the adoption curve that the more consensus in the mass market, the less interesting it is to me. Does anyone else feel the same?
3) How important it is to get the information about audience and content right.
I’m not sure the good folks at Simon & Schuster thought about the possible implications of putting these kinds of offbeat books into the Vine Program. I guarantee they will now.
I think this is particularly true about Tony’s Meno books which are a BIG departure from his previous blockbusters for middle grade readers.
So often in the marketing process books are promoted on the basis of the author’s previous record. The 10 second handle is “The newest book from best-selling author XX.” This works great for series and genre books, but is an obvious failure for new books that seriously deviate from the author’s previous work. And the truth is, when a publisher/marketer/sales team is dealing with a list of 200 or more books a season, some of the nuance is lost in the presentation.
If it is true that publishers are paying for the Vine program–I’m still unclear about this–I’m sure S&S isn’t happy to pay for the privilege of having its books trashed in early reviews. I agree with Betsy that the obvious reaction to this will be to place less risky books in future.
Some of the blame for this whole tempest-in-a-teapot lies in errors in the information process at the publishers. Marketing departments are crafting materials as the books are being published, and sometimes that info needs to change with the finished book, but can’t once it gets out into the world. Catalog copy is sometimes written before the book is finished, and early bibliographic information is not always accurate. Not pretty, but true.
Sometimes publishers default to set categories: picture books are usually labeled 4-8 as a default, even when they might be better for 5-8 like Mac & Adam’s book.
This becomes particularly tricky for anthologies, gift books, and other kinds of books that really appeal to everyone, but that have to have an age range because of the system. Booksellers generally dislike the age category ALL, because it doesn’t tell them enough to shelve it, even though it might be true from a user POV.
Once the bibliographic information is released by the publishers (way before the book it finished) it’s like letting the genie out of the bottle. What is done can’t be undone, and then anything that draws from that info (like Amazon Vine target lists) is corrupted.
AND, that doesn’t account for reader’s tendencies to pick books above the appropriate age level, even when the information is accurate. I call that the “My Toddler Reads Shakespeare” syndrome. This has become a real issue in the so-called “tween” market where readers are reaching into the YA category when they may not be ready for some of the more mature content there. But that is another post.
***
I’m sure this discussion will continue to resonate in many different conversations across the industry. In the end authors will need to take an active role in overseeing and commenting on these issues, because that is the place where their voice can be heard.
They aren’t the junior staffers sitting in a cubicle deep in the bowels of a publisher, plugging the bibliographic data into a computer before upload to the web. “4-8 or 5-8? It’s not that big a deal, right?”
Wrong—but the ship has long sailed.
On the Amazon side, we’re seeing the fallout of a large, digitized, algorithmic system. No one at Amazon looks at a book like Tony or Adam’s and says “Hey, that’s not right!” And the person who does notice—the author or the publisher or the librarian or the bookseller—has very little recourse. The system is JUST TOO BIG.
Authors, your readers do care about what you have to say. Speak out, and people will listen. It can be a game changer, and perhaps people all along the chain will be a little more thoughtful the next time they deal with a book in the pipeline.
To all Vine reviewers, keep thinking about what would be helpful to us, the readers. And please think about the authors too. They care about what you say and how you choose to say it. To them it’s not just another book on the pile.
As Vine reviewers, you have a great responsibility, even if you think no one is paying attention.
***
UPDATE 11-4-09: Another really great perspective from Jon Bischke. His concern has to do with the much-discussed positive pressure on AV reviews, and he feels it’s a threat to a phenomenon called Connected Consumption, which is best explained in this paper by Havas Media Lab in the UK.
Big picture stuff, people.
8 comments
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November 3, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Adam Rex
This is a great article. I thought I should correct a couple things, though.
I never meant to imply that GUESS AGAIN! (written by Mac Barnett–I merely illustrated it) should be listed as 5-8. S&S has deemed it 4-8, and I’m comfortable with that, even though I personally believe it skews just slightly older.
The fact that so many Vine reviewers requested GA! for their 2 or 3 year-olds suggests either that Amazon’s newsletter contained an age range for the book that was NEVER current or accurate, or that it contained no age range at all, or that Vine reviewers aren’t being advised to pay attention to the item description.
Amazon is full of reviews by parents who bought a book for a child who was too young for it, but I’ve noticed a substantial increase in these sorts of reviews since the Vine program began.
Finally, and this is a minor point–GUESS AGAIN! had 3 and a half stars when Betsy wrote her original post, and it has 3 and a half stars now. It was never hit quite as hard as Diterlizzi’s MENO. And 3 and a half stars is not terribly bad, though when nearly all picture books fall in the four-to-five star range it still raises eyebrows.
November 3, 2009 at 3:21 pm
kmclean
Thanks, Adam. Those are all valid points.
I still feel that the general categorization of books does default to specific age ranges, and that sometimes they say more about where the book is being positioned rather than what is truly accurate.
That being said, I’m going to amend this post to make sure there are no unintended inaccuracies.
😉
November 3, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Shevi
I think you’ve done a very good job presenting your point of view on Amazon Vine, and I’m so glad you read the comments that came after Betsy’s blog post. (I tried my best to dispell some misconceptions I saw there.)
You asked what Amazon Vine members knew about Meno before choosing it from their lists. I checked back on my newsletters and couldn’t find it. (I am an Amazon Vine reviewer.) Here, though, is an example of a typical offering, one I might request as it sounds like something I would like:
My Wonderful World of Fashion: A Book for Drawing, Creating and Dreaming
By: Nina Chakrabarti
Category: Book , Fashion design
An interactive coloring book for fashionistas of all ages, My Wonderful World of Fashion is packed with beautiful and sophisticated illustrations specially created by the leading fashion-illustrator Nina Chakrabarti.
The book encourages creativity, with illustrations to color in and designs to finish off, as well as simple ideas for making and doing (how to make a sari, turn a napkin into a headscarf, dye a T-shirt, and so on). Covering clothing, shoes, bags, jewelry, and other accessories, the illustrations span both vintage fashions—drawing on beautiful and interesting objects from past ages—and contemporary designs from the illustrator’s own imagination.
‘Did you know…?’ features that give brief historical notes encourage children to be inspired by history and by other cultures. A wonderful celebration of fashion, the book will appeal to fashion addicts from 8 years plus.
___________________________
I hope this gives you a better idea of what Amazon Vine reviewers see.
Shevi Arnold
November 3, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Shevi
By the way, if you check this particular book, you’ll see it’s rated 5* with mostly Amazon Vine reviews, and if you click on those Vine reviewers’ profiles, you’ll see their other reviews. This should give you a better idea of how Vine reviewers really rate items.
I know that Betsy felt Vine reviewers are often too harsh, but most of the complaints I’ve seen about the Vine on Amazon have criticized them for being too nice. There’s been much discussion about this on the Amazon Vine forum as well, people feeling they couldn’t say anything negative about a product because, after all, the company selling it gave it to them for free.
I’ve told these reviewers what one of my editors told me when I was writing a consumer column: “If it tastes like crap, say it tastes like crap.” A lot of Amazon Vine reviewers have a hard time doing this (myself included), but I know it has to be done if we really want to be honest with other Amazon customers.
The lack of transparency, by the way, is something Amazon Vine reviewers have a hard time with as well. Transparency is the key to winning a customer’s trust online. I’m sure that Amazon knows this, and I hope there will be greater transparency regarding the Vine program in the future.
Oh, and one more thing: as a writer I would certainly want my book to be included in the Amazon Vine program. Many Amazon customers will not buy a book if it has no reviews, and they would rather buy one rated 3* than one with no reviews at all. Both good and bad, the more reviews my books get the better. But that’s just my opinion.
November 4, 2009 at 11:07 am
Bellatrix
Vine members get 2 newsletters a month. One is a “targeted” list and is supposed to be based on what the reviewer would enjoy. This is usually a relatively small list and how much a person likes it is a direct result of if Amazon targeted correctly. The second list is the leftovers list, and it’s huge. There are enough choices, particularly on the second list that people should be able to choose books they’d really like — at least in theory. In that regard, I don’t see a problem with anyone picking something that just isn’t them, unless they deliberately want to step out of their comfort zone.
Vine members, as was mentioned above, do have more of a reputation for positive than for negative reviews. I think that this means they picked well — know what they’d enjoy and selected it. I would argue if there is an uptick in negative reviews, it’s for the good.
I think most people do subscribe to the “if you don’t have anything nice to say…” school of reviews and save their comments for books they like. In the case of Vine, there is no obligation to pick from a newsletter but — having selected items — there’s an obligation to review 75% of items. That hopefully means more true opinions as people comment on books they might have read and moved on from in the past.
Writers, of course, want great reviews, but Amazon reviews are primarily to serve the reader — at least, I look at it that way. I can’t speak for Amazon. That means that honest negative reviews are something to be encouraged, even if they’re negative. An obligation to review 75% of items, while protecting amazon and vendors from someone getting freebies without them giving anything back, also offers the possibility of a system that favors the consumer.
There was also a debate on whether or not a Vine member can be a hobbyist or has to be called a professional. That’s splitting hairs for me. A hobbyist can still take his or her hobby seriously. I review Vine items in the same way I review items I’ve purchased, with the difference of giving Vine reviews priority since they’re often pre-releases. I don’t feel like the hat I wear changes — hobbyist if the tag says verified purchase, professional if it says Vine Review.
Everyone has his or her own technique. I try to be honest, first and foremost. I try to let people know why I think or thought I was the audience for the item. Occasionally I have to say that I don’t feel the item was marketed correctly, which I’d like to think the pub finds helpful. However, a lot of times the preliminary info on an item is sketchy, because the pub is still figuring it out. I try to always find something positive to say, because I respect that people put work into the product. Even on books I really like, I mention any negatives too. I don’t think I’m a perfect reviewer, but I believe I give people enough info to know where I’m coming from so that, even if they’re a different type of reader, they can then know if it might be worth it for them.
I’m a person of integrity. I love the Vine program, because it’s fun to receive new items, and to receive them first, but I’m still going to be honest — other than using a nom de plume when reviewing and another one for discussing reviewing. If I ever felt I was obligated to review dishonestly, I’d quit the program and not look back.
Any Vine member who tells you why they were chosen is only guessing. We’d all like to think it was for our stellar reviews, but there’s evidence that this is not always the case. That means I’ll be the first person to say it’s a mystery. That’s why I think the Vine tag is a necessary disclosure, but shouldn’t be taken as a sign that the review that follows is better or more credible than any other review on an item. People imbue the tag with more prestige than they possibly should, but I don’t know a way around that unless Amazon tells their process. I’m guessing they don’t want to do that, because it’ll change the behavior of people in much the same way as knowing the formula for reviewer rankings.
November 4, 2009 at 12:43 pm
jojoleb
I am not certain that Vine reviews are really any different than other reviews posted on Amazon. The marketing strategy is simple, though: distribute advance copies to a cadre of dedicated reviewers and ensure that a book (or item) already has reviews posted by the time it goes on sale. Most people who buy and read a book will never review it. With the requirement to write a certain number of reviews to continue participating in the program, Vine reviewers are far more likely to post reviews than an average reader.
Skill levels, opinions, and common sense differ among all strata of reviewers on Amazon. The same is true of Vine reviewers. Amazon hasn’t revealed its algorithm for selecting Vine reviewers or how they target their newsletter. But the deck is actually stacked in favor of the book or product, as few people will not opt for (even free) things that they don’t really want. For most people, getting something free of charge also means that they are less likely to be critical and there is most likely a natural tendency towards a positive review.
In my opinion, the targeting is less of a real issue for this reason. People pick items off the list that they are predisposed to review favorably. Why request something that you know you know is a waste of time and then have slog through a review of it? The blurbs that are sent to Vine members are often different than the ones found on the product page (which may be in various stages of development at the time of a books listing for Vine viewers), so the product description is very important.
The criteria for Vine reviews are spelled out by Amazon and are the same instructions given for all reviewers on Amazon. The stated purpose of the Vine program is to generate a ‘buzz’ for a product and to provide pre-release ‘customer feedback’ to a vendor.
This ends up being part of marketing, but not all marketing is necessarily bad. I have not read or reviewed the books in question, but there are many reasons for a poor review, including the following:
First and foremost, a publisher needs to represent a book correctly. If this is not the case, the product may suffer by having an advanced review. I reviewed Anime Studio Debut 6 for Vine and gave it 3 stars. Why? Because in the product description it said that the program was ‘perfect for first time animators’ (e.g. me). What I got was a product that was likely excellent for a more advanced animator, but was neither user friendly or easy to use and had a very steep learning curve in my hands. I did go to great lengths to describe the program, however, and thought it would be an excellent program for a more advanced user. I stand by this review, even though it has garnered 0/3 positives and is now buried somewhere on the bottom of the review pile never to be seen again. Quite importantly, I hope I described the program accurately from my point of view and explained how my opinion might differ from a more savvy user. The point here is that product descriptions are very important and if a reviewer (or buyer) gets something different than described, they may be disappointed.
There are times where a reader simply doesn’t like a book or product. A negative review is certainly okay in this setting, so long as a reviewer explains his or her position.
Finally, a reviewer may receive a lousy book or product. Once again, it is okay to pan a book or product, so long as you explain why.
On the whole, I think that the reviews by Vine members are no better or worse than those by others who use Amazon. As to the need for a ‘professional’ to review the product? One of the important features of Amazon is that there are a myriad of reviews from lay people who have bought and used a product and tell you about their experience.
If you look at the reviews for ‘Guess Again!’, weeks later you will see that the bulk of the reviews that run the gamut from three stars to five stars. Now that the reviews have started to fill out, the usual customer reviews seem to mirror the Vine reviews, but ‘Guess Again!’ is starting to edge up from a 2+ star book to the 3+ star territory. Not having read the book, I can’t judge the validity of any of the reviews, but the Vine reviews seem to have reflected the general consensus of the book. Moreover, out of the top 3 reviews that are ‘spotlighted’ only the number two review is from Vine.
If you look at Big Fun! (Adventure of Meno), it is still too early in the process to see if the general reviews will reflect the opinion in the Vine reviews, which were spread across the board from 1 star to 5 stars.
I have not read the book, but my guess would be from reading the 1 star reviews that the reviewers were quite concerned about an emphasis on flatulence in this book and that this was a deal breaker for them. Books with flatulence that are geared towards an audience of young children will always have their share of negative reviews. Even if you read reviews for books such as ‘The Gas We Pass’ by Shinta Cho where the subject is right there in the title and on the cover, some readers just can’t help but giving out 1 star. So Cho’s book has an almost bimodal distribution of reviews with a peak at 5 stars and smaller peak at 1 star. So farting, EVEN in a book that is supposed to teach children about their bodily functions, is a deal breaker for some reviewers and represents a risk for a bad review.
Either way, I don’t know that the Vine reviewers were any more critical or all that different from the usual Amazon customer in these cases. Nor did poor reviews end up damning the books to obscurity. One might argue that reviews that run the gamut from 1 star to 5 star can help a potential buyer make a more informed decision before purchasing. And in the end, that’s what a customer review is all about.
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